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Simplicity and PFM crowns
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually use an IPC carver to remove the cement, and if it doesn't all come off, Sim 1 to dissolve the little bits remaining. Then I will use either the RelyX Luting Cement or the indirect bonding technique with Simplicity.
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D,

I have not been just wiping clean, just because of how I was taught in school. I believe that many here have said to bond before the temp is bonded, then just remove temp, wipe clean and use your resin cement. I, mentally, have a tough time doing this.

Get over it! Wink I have been doing this since 1988. I think it works.


I can't get myself past the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective.

Huh?

I know that I'm way off base. I also thought that zoe would break down the bonding agent so that I'd have to reapply. This was why I posed the question initially. Still not completely sure about the answer but hope to get is soon.

Which question, CK?
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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Location: chicago

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not sure about the answer to my question about not having to rebond prior to permanent cementation if you are using a resin type cement after temp bonding a crown. also if the zoe will reduce the effectiveness of the simplicity so therefore the need to reapply sim 1 and 2. The reason I said I can't get over the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective is just a mental block nothing factual. It is based on a how my school taught bonding protocol and that any moisture contamination would ruin the bond. Therefore in my mind, I think that even though there was no contamination during the bonding(prep sealing) process, the temp may not be sealed to perfection at the margins therefore breaking down that layer of bonding agent. I know it sounds stupid, but just how crazy things were taught, as far as how to properly bond, when I went to school. That is why this forum is so great for me. I don't mind thowing out a dumb question every once in a while. As long as it breaks down these mental blocks I have, it is worth being made fun of!! Wink Very Happy
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not sure about the answer to my question about not having to rebond prior to permanent cementation if you are using a resin type cement after temp bonding a crown.

>> If one is using a resin luting agent to cement a crown then yes, do rebond the tooth using the indirect technique.

also if the zoe will reduce the effectiveness of the simplicity so therefore the need to reapply sim 1 and 2.

>> I would use ZOE only if I were to use Rely Luting PLus. If I plan to bond the thing on I would use only Durelon. One can still bond to a tooth having been exposed to ZOE but the bond strengths are slightly diminished compared to other temp cements.

The reason I said I can't get over the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective is just a mental block nothing factual.

>> Your premise is faulty, CK- the part that says that the bonding agent would be less effective....

It is based on a how my school taught bonding protocol and that any moisture contamination would ruin the bond. Therefore in my mind, I think that even though there was no contamination during the bonding(prep sealing) process, the temp may not be sealed to perfection at the margins therefore breaking down that layer of bonding agent. I know it sounds stupid, but just how crazy things were taught, as far as how to properly bond, when I went to school. That is why this forum is so great for me. I don't mind thowing out a dumb question every once in a while. As long as it breaks down these mental blocks I have, it is worth being made fun of!! Wink Very Happy

>> You are more likely to have a better bond if the tooth is sealed at time of prep and the temp cement is over the resin. It's easier to get that off than off the tooth than it is to create a fresh dentin surface.
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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Location: chicago

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JK,

once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon! Rolling Eyes Wink
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool kid wrote:
JK,

once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon! Rolling Eyes Wink


One word-- DON"T
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

have no fear, even I figured that one out! Wink Cool
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Howardmg



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: Bethlehem, PA.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah,
I had a bitch of a time cleaning off TR2 from the Simplicity prepped preps.
I no longer use TR2.
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Howard M. Goldstein DMD.
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6346

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps. Smile Cool
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Mark J Fleming DDS



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Sarasota, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps. Smile Cool


Hot Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Very Happy Cool
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doc4smile



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 34
Location: CA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
cool kid wrote:
JK,

once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon! Rolling Eyes Wink


One word-- DON"T


I'm sorry ..but few week ago, I asked Dr. Kanca if I can use Tremex Temporary cement (its said it is non-eugenol) after applied Simplicity on the prep tooth. He response was yes. Is Tremex will have the same as thet TR2? I just did one yesterday. ah oh!!
I also have another question...after the pat return for final cementation of PFM...and I plan to use Fujicem, Dr. Kanca said to clean w/ Sim 1 and WASH --now..wash--does than mean using water to spray off the Sim 1 or use cotton pellet to wipe then dry ?

So far, I have placed simplicity on cementation on a bridge final cement w/ fujicem, temp w/ GC advantage, temp w/ Tremex temp cement. All, so far, reported w/ no symptom of discomfort. I will cont. to report to you guys. Thank you verymuch for ur supports and follow up.

regards,
GAry
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry ..but few week ago, I asked Dr. Kanca if I can use Tremex Temporary cement (its said it is non-eugenol) after applied Simplicity on the prep tooth. He response was yes. Is Tremex will have the same as thet TR2? I just did one yesterday. ah oh!!

Temrex cement is a ZOE cement. Presumably Temrex NE would be a calcium hydroxide cement. If it is a resin cement, things could get interesting.

I also have another question...after the pat return for final cementation of PFM...and I plan to use Fujicem, Dr. Kanca said to clean w/ Sim 1 and WASH --now..wash--does than mean using water to spray off the Sim 1 or use cotton pellet to wipe then dry ?

Sim 1, rinse with water, and dry. Cotton pellet is OK too.

So far, I have placed simplicity on cementation on a bridge final cement w/ fujicem, temp w/ GC advantage, temp w/ Tremex temp cement. All, so far, reported w/ no symptom of discomfort. I will cont. to report to you guys. Thank you verymuch for ur supports and follow up.

Always good to hear! Cool
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bj



Joined: 15 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps."
Cool !

If I read the above posts correctly, & if I undersatnd the chemistry correctly, what I glean is:
- people were taught to not involve Eugenol products when dealing with bonding products/ composites since it made the bonding products/ composites far less ideal ( lead to failure )
- JK agrees

Years ago as soon as I found that out, I got rid of all Eugenol products- who needs to be worried about this problem when substitutes are available!

Bottom line, ditch all the eugenol products to keep your life simple. I haven't had em since early 90's, don't miss em.

Other thing I glean from above posts; hoping I can simplify for you:
- don't use any resin temp materials/ temp cements if you are sealing preps w Sim. Sim is a "resin", so it'll bond to the temp materials that you don't want it to bond to. Again, ditch em, why complicate your life.

JK, do I have it right?

Endodontists returning cases to you w an access opening filled w IRM need to change to cavit, right? IRM has Eugenol, doesn't it? The access material of choice is composite so IRM complicates that, you gotta be real careful to clean it out & maybe prep some more (something you often don't want to do). JK, am I right here?
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps."
Cool !

If I read the above posts correctly, & if I undersatnd the chemistry correctly, what I glean is:
- people were taught to not involve Eugenol products when dealing with bonding products/ composites since it made the bonding products/ composites far less ideal ( lead to failure )
- JK agrees

In general this is correct.

Years ago as soon as I found that out, I got rid of all Eugenol products- who needs to be worried about this problem when substitutes are available!

Bottom line, ditch all the eugenol products to keep your life simple. I haven't had em since early 90's, don't miss em.

Other thing I glean from above posts; hoping I can simplify for you:
- don't use any resin temp materials/ temp cements if you are sealing preps w Sim. Sim is a "resin", so it'll bond to the temp materials that you don't want it to bond to. Again, ditch em, why complicate your life.

JK, do I have it right?

Right!

Endodontists returning cases to you w an access opening filled w IRM need to change to cavit, right? IRM has Eugenol, doesn't it? The access material of choice is composite so IRM complicates that, you gotta be real careful to clean it out & maybe prep some more (something you often don't want to do). JK, am I right here?

The best choice is glass ionomer- like Ketac-Bond.
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Gerry



Joined: 13 May 2005
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Location: Tarrytown NY

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a polycarboxylate that doesn't take forever to set! Is light-cured a possibility?
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