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DRY DRY DRY
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6346

PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From JK - Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:21 am

Are you still up from last night or getting an early start?!

Just got back from Dan's house. We talked a lot.

As Simplicity 1 is H2O, as is Interface, the degree of moisture should not be as critical as with other non-H2O based adhesives.

It is and it isn't. It is tolerant of moisture variations- even CRA found that- but it is clearly better when the tissue is dried first.

I've always posed the question "How dry is 'dry' and how moist is 'moist' when applying various adhesives to dentin".

Keep asking that. Wink
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2 hour data when Sim samples were stored at 40 degrees C was over 50 mPa.

This is one hot system. Honestly, the longer I have it, the better it gets. Very Happy It is also teaching me more and more about dentin and molecular weight-related mobility.
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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Location: chicago

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
The 2 hour data when Sim samples were stored at 40 degrees C was over 50 mPa.

This is one hot system. Honestly, the longer I have it, the better it gets. Very Happy It is also teaching me more and more about dentin and molecular weight-related mobility.


what temperature is that in america? Wink Laughing
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Rich (cool kid) Rosenblatt
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Ekrause



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: I'm here now.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

104F
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Gerry



Joined: 13 May 2005
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Location: Tarrytown NY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently restorations bonded with Simplicity have better results if the patient is running a fever.

PS: What's the big deal - you got 51.8 MPa by simply drying the teeth for 10 seconds prior to part 1!
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Michael ONeal



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Columbus, GA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think John is commenting on how simplicity is very stable over a variety of temps. which makes it that much easier to achieve success with it. I like this idea of drying well; i think it's easier to duplicate than drying without dessication, that's listed on everyone elses's instructions. How 'bout interface? Any testing on this with drying?
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Gerry



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drying teeth prior to Interface - good point. We'll do that tomorrow.

Actually the tests I did were on fairly desiccated teeth. Dried for 5 hours. A bit over doing things, but the samples were removed from the containers and left on the bench top while I was treating patients until lunch. The other tests, using the desired protocol, were 10 seconds of concentrated drying at very close range to the tooth surface at 40PSI. As I mentioned JK averaged 51.8MPa after 2 hours and I averaged 42MPa after 1 hour. I have 25 samples of 10 second drying as above and 25 at 1 second drying. !0 seconds really dries the crap out of the teeth! These 50 samples will be tested tomorrow.

Let you know how things turn out.

BTW JK is now advocating this drying procedure prior to placing Simplicity - NOT other adhesives. The others we've tested show extremely reduced SBS whereas Simplicity goes way up!! This could be a valuable concept when bonding to non-vital teeth.
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Michael ONeal



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points Gerry. Let us know what you get from your testing. I have been drying teeth about 5 to 10 seconds and seems to work fine. Those bond strengths are awesome. I will be bonding in a crown this afternoon so I will follow up to see if there is any sensitivity using the "super-dry" protocol. Good point about non vital teeth.
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the midst of a discussion with Ray Becker on the Cerec forum. he was discussing how much he really enjoys simplicity and was telling someone the steps. He told the preson no to dry the tooth too much. I told him that, based on the recent discussions on this thread, that you can't really overdry the tooth and cause sensitivity. the system works better with the tooth dry before sim 1. I hope I did not misspeak!
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Mark J Fleming DDS



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool kid wrote:
I'm in the midst of a discussion with Ray Becker on the Cerec forum. he was discussing how much he really enjoys simplicity and was telling someone the steps. He told the preson no to dry the tooth too much. I told him that, based on the recent discussions on this thread, that you can't really overdry the tooth and cause sensitivity. the system works better with the tooth dry before sim 1. I hope I did not misspeak!


Rich,

With what everyone is posting here, no misspeak spoken! Laughing Cool
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Gerry



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 448
Location: Tarrytown NY

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just posted a reply and it disappeared!

No misspeak - so far.

Tomorrow we're going to tests the 25 "overdried" (10 second) specimens and the 25 "normally" dried (brief 1-2 second) specimens. I assume one of us will post the findings when done.
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Gerry



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW since I started using 10 seconds of desiccation last Thursday I have restored 15 vital teeth with direct composite and Simplicity. All patients have been called and NOT ONE has experienced any trace of sensitivity!!
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerry wrote:
BTW since I started using 10 seconds of desiccation last Thursday I have restored 15 vital teeth with direct composite and Simplicity. All patients have been called and NOT ONE has experienced any trace of sensitivity!!


I dare say that when doing this we are all going to see even less sensitivity overall and less also with sealed preps. Very Happy
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DrDan



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool kid wrote:
I'm in the midst of a discussion with Ray Becker on the Cerec forum. he was discussing how much he really enjoys simplicity and was telling someone the steps. He told the preson no to dry the tooth too much.


That's cool! When did Ray start using Simplicity? I knew he was hesitant to change....

Dan Smile
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cool kid



Joined: 12 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he said it has been pretty recent, but he loves the stuff now. he is on the cerec.net forum just gushing about the product. also pumping up the release of great products to enhance cerec use. I'm assuming interface and anchor. I was suprised at the switch myself. he was gung ho on the optibond solo.
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Rich (cool kid) Rosenblatt
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