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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I usually use an IPC carver to remove the cement, and if it doesn't all come off, Sim 1 to dissolve the little bits remaining. Then I will use either the RelyX Luting Cement or the indirect bonding technique with Simplicity. _________________ "You need me on that wall."
"You don't have a town named after you" |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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D,
I have not been just wiping clean, just because of how I was taught in school. I believe that many here have said to bond before the temp is bonded, then just remove temp, wipe clean and use your resin cement. I, mentally, have a tough time doing this.
Get over it! I have been doing this since 1988. I think it works.
I can't get myself past the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective.
Huh?
I know that I'm way off base. I also thought that zoe would break down the bonding agent so that I'd have to reapply. This was why I posed the question initially. Still not completely sure about the answer but hope to get is soon.
Which question, CK? _________________ "You need me on that wall."
"You don't have a town named after you" |
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cool kid
Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 818 Location: chicago
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I was not sure about the answer to my question about not having to rebond prior to permanent cementation if you are using a resin type cement after temp bonding a crown. also if the zoe will reduce the effectiveness of the simplicity so therefore the need to reapply sim 1 and 2. The reason I said I can't get over the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective is just a mental block nothing factual. It is based on a how my school taught bonding protocol and that any moisture contamination would ruin the bond. Therefore in my mind, I think that even though there was no contamination during the bonding(prep sealing) process, the temp may not be sealed to perfection at the margins therefore breaking down that layer of bonding agent. I know it sounds stupid, but just how crazy things were taught, as far as how to properly bond, when I went to school. That is why this forum is so great for me. I don't mind thowing out a dumb question every once in a while. As long as it breaks down these mental blocks I have, it is worth being made fun of!!  _________________ Rich (cool kid) Rosenblatt
whipping boy of flem |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:19 am Post subject: |
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I was not sure about the answer to my question about not having to rebond prior to permanent cementation if you are using a resin type cement after temp bonding a crown.
>> If one is using a resin luting agent to cement a crown then yes, do rebond the tooth using the indirect technique.
also if the zoe will reduce the effectiveness of the simplicity so therefore the need to reapply sim 1 and 2.
>> I would use ZOE only if I were to use Rely Luting PLus. If I plan to bond the thing on I would use only Durelon. One can still bond to a tooth having been exposed to ZOE but the bond strengths are slightly diminished compared to other temp cements.
The reason I said I can't get over the fact that the bonding agent would be less effective is just a mental block nothing factual.
>> Your premise is faulty, CK- the part that says that the bonding agent would be less effective....
It is based on a how my school taught bonding protocol and that any moisture contamination would ruin the bond. Therefore in my mind, I think that even though there was no contamination during the bonding(prep sealing) process, the temp may not be sealed to perfection at the margins therefore breaking down that layer of bonding agent. I know it sounds stupid, but just how crazy things were taught, as far as how to properly bond, when I went to school. That is why this forum is so great for me. I don't mind thowing out a dumb question every once in a while. As long as it breaks down these mental blocks I have, it is worth being made fun of!!
>> You are more likely to have a better bond if the tooth is sealed at time of prep and the temp cement is over the resin. It's easier to get that off than off the tooth than it is to create a fresh dentin surface. _________________ "You need me on that wall."
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cool kid
Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 818 Location: chicago
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: |
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JK,
once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon!  _________________ Rich (cool kid) Rosenblatt
whipping boy of flem |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: |
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cool kid wrote: | JK,
once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon!  |
One word-- DON"T _________________ "You need me on that wall."
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cool kid
Joined: 12 May 2005 Posts: 818 Location: chicago
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |
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have no fear, even I figured that one out!  _________________ Rich (cool kid) Rosenblatt
whipping boy of flem |
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Howardmg
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 455 Location: Bethlehem, PA.
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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yeah,
I had a bitch of a time cleaning off TR2 from the Simplicity prepped preps.
I no longer use TR2. _________________ Take Care...Howard
Howard M. Goldstein DMD.
Bethlehem. PA.
www.exceldentalcare.com |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps.  _________________ "You need me on that wall."
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Mark J Fleming DDS
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 736 Location: Sarasota, FL
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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john kanca wrote: | We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps.  |
Hot Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  |
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doc4smile
Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 34 Location: CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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john kanca wrote: | cool kid wrote: | JK,
once again, a deep thanks. If I use a temp cement like access temp cement, which says it is a temporary resin cement, will I have permanent temps? will I be able to get those things off? I guess I'll be ordering some durelon!  |
One word-- DON"T |
I'm sorry ..but few week ago, I asked Dr. Kanca if I can use Tremex Temporary cement (its said it is non-eugenol) after applied Simplicity on the prep tooth. He response was yes. Is Tremex will have the same as thet TR2? I just did one yesterday. ah oh!!
I also have another question...after the pat return for final cementation of PFM...and I plan to use Fujicem, Dr. Kanca said to clean w/ Sim 1 and WASH --now..wash--does than mean using water to spray off the Sim 1 or use cotton pellet to wipe then dry ?
So far, I have placed simplicity on cementation on a bridge final cement w/ fujicem, temp w/ GC advantage, temp w/ Tremex temp cement. All, so far, reported w/ no symptom of discomfort. I will cont. to report to you guys. Thank you verymuch for ur supports and follow up.
regards,
GAry |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry ..but few week ago, I asked Dr. Kanca if I can use Tremex Temporary cement (its said it is non-eugenol) after applied Simplicity on the prep tooth. He response was yes. Is Tremex will have the same as thet TR2? I just did one yesterday. ah oh!!
Temrex cement is a ZOE cement. Presumably Temrex NE would be a calcium hydroxide cement. If it is a resin cement, things could get interesting.
I also have another question...after the pat return for final cementation of PFM...and I plan to use Fujicem, Dr. Kanca said to clean w/ Sim 1 and WASH --now..wash--does than mean using water to spray off the Sim 1 or use cotton pellet to wipe then dry ?
Sim 1, rinse with water, and dry. Cotton pellet is OK too.
So far, I have placed simplicity on cementation on a bridge final cement w/ fujicem, temp w/ GC advantage, temp w/ Tremex temp cement. All, so far, reported w/ no symptom of discomfort. I will cont. to report to you guys. Thank you verymuch for ur supports and follow up.
Always good to hear!  _________________ "You need me on that wall."
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bj
Joined: 15 May 2005 Posts: 320
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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"We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps."
Cool !
If I read the above posts correctly, & if I undersatnd the chemistry correctly, what I glean is:
- people were taught to not involve Eugenol products when dealing with bonding products/ composites since it made the bonding products/ composites far less ideal ( lead to failure )
- JK agrees
Years ago as soon as I found that out, I got rid of all Eugenol products- who needs to be worried about this problem when substitutes are available!
Bottom line, ditch all the eugenol products to keep your life simple. I haven't had em since early 90's, don't miss em.
Other thing I glean from above posts; hoping I can simplify for you:
- don't use any resin temp materials/ temp cements if you are sealing preps w Sim. Sim is a "resin", so it'll bond to the temp materials that you don't want it to bond to. Again, ditch em, why complicate your life.
JK, do I have it right?
Endodontists returning cases to you w an access opening filled w IRM need to change to cavit, right? IRM has Eugenol, doesn't it? The access material of choice is composite so IRM complicates that, you gotta be real careful to clean it out & maybe prep some more (something you often don't want to do). JK, am I right here? |
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john kanca
Joined: 14 May 2005 Posts: 6346
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: |
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"We also have in development stream another polycarboxylate cement for temporaries and pulp caps."
Cool !
If I read the above posts correctly, & if I undersatnd the chemistry correctly, what I glean is:
- people were taught to not involve Eugenol products when dealing with bonding products/ composites since it made the bonding products/ composites far less ideal ( lead to failure )
- JK agrees
In general this is correct.
Years ago as soon as I found that out, I got rid of all Eugenol products- who needs to be worried about this problem when substitutes are available!
Bottom line, ditch all the eugenol products to keep your life simple. I haven't had em since early 90's, don't miss em.
Other thing I glean from above posts; hoping I can simplify for you:
- don't use any resin temp materials/ temp cements if you are sealing preps w Sim. Sim is a "resin", so it'll bond to the temp materials that you don't want it to bond to. Again, ditch em, why complicate your life.
JK, do I have it right?
Right!
Endodontists returning cases to you w an access opening filled w IRM need to change to cavit, right? IRM has Eugenol, doesn't it? The access material of choice is composite so IRM complicates that, you gotta be real careful to clean it out & maybe prep some more (something you often don't want to do). JK, am I right here?
The best choice is glass ionomer- like Ketac-Bond. _________________ "You need me on that wall."
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Gerry
Joined: 13 May 2005 Posts: 448 Location: Tarrytown NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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How about a polycarboxylate that doesn't take forever to set! Is light-cured a possibility? _________________ Gerry |
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