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Question from Surpass newbie

 
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macadoo



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 36
Location: Washington, NC

PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Question from Surpass newbie Reply with quote

I'm going to start using Surpass on some cases Monday, and I've got a few questions.

1) Surpass 1 "etches enamel as well as phosphoric acid". Does this mean the 10 s Surpass 1 application provides an equivalent enamel etch as a 10 s application of phosphoric acid, or does it provide the equivalent etch of the "standard" 20 s phosphoric acid etch?

2) Step 1..."remove all visible water by drying the surface for approximately 5 second with dried compressed air". Can one overdry the tooth at this step? Should the 5 seconds of air be "full blast", close to the tooth?

3) Is it contraindicated to "scrub" in Surpass 1, 2, or 3?

4) Will it make a mess if Surpass 2 is applied outside of the prep margins, or will the excess simply volatize on drying, without leaving any film outside the prep margins?

5) How volatile are the Surpass components? Should I be concerned about assistants leaving caps off? Should I be having the assistants shake each component before dispensing, or is there no risk of separation/settling?

6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?
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macadoo



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 36
Location: Washington, NC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody on vacation?
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6345

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Surpass 1 "etches enamel as well as phosphoric acid". Does this mean the 10 s Surpass 1 application provides an equivalent enamel etch as a 10 s application of phosphoric acid, or does it provide the equivalent etch of the "standard" 20 s phosphoric acid etch?

The standard is 15 sec of H3PO4 and the answer is yes.

2) Step 1..."remove all visible water by drying the surface for approximately 5 second with dried compressed air". Can one overdry the tooth at this step? Should the 5 seconds of air be "full blast", close to the tooth?

One cannot overdry the tooth at that point.

3) Is it contraindicated to "scrub" in Surpass 1, 2, or 3?

It's a good thing to scrub in Surpass 1 but not 2 or 3.

4) Will it make a mess if Surpass 2 is applied outside of the prep margins, or will the excess simply volatize on drying, without leaving any film outside the prep margins?

Won't make a mess. It'll stick wherever Surpass 1 conditions the tooth and won't stick where it has not done so.

5) How volatile are the Surpass components? Should I be concerned about assistants leaving caps off? Should I be having the assistants shake each component before dispensing, or is there no risk of separation/settling?

Caps should not be left off ANY bonding components of ANY system. We always shake Surpass 2 as we would any bottle containing a solvent.

6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?
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macadoo



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
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Location: Washington, NC

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:


6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the oxygen-inhibited layer is the reason dual-cured materials, if allowed to self-cure, don't bond as well with some bonding systems as when light cured. Removing this layer with alcohol gives stronger bonding strengths when allowing these materials to self-cure. Just curious if the same is true with Surpass, for the times when I don't want to cure twice, preferring one bulk-fill increment.
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ilikecoffee



Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does usage of clean and boost alter usage of Surpass 1?
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macadoo wrote:
john kanca wrote:


6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the oxygen-inhibited layer is the reason dual-cured materials, if allowed to self-cure, don't bond as well with some bonding systems as when light cured. Removing this layer with alcohol gives stronger bonding strengths when allowing these materials to self-cure. Just curious if the same is true with Surpass, for the times when I don't want to cure twice, preferring one bulk-fill increment.


Not sure who told you this. We thought of trying this probably 15 years ago and found that if the resin adhesive won't stick to self-cure removing the 02 layer won't matter.
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ilikecoffee wrote:
Does usage of clean and boost alter usage of Surpass 1?


No.
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macadoo wrote:
john kanca wrote:


6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the oxygen-inhibited layer is the reason dual-cured materials, if allowed to self-cure, don't bond as well with some bonding systems as when light cured. Removing this layer with alcohol gives stronger bonding strengths when allowing these materials to self-cure. Just curious if the same is true with Surpass, for the times when I don't want to cure twice, preferring one bulk-fill increment.


The other thing is that sometimes this can make adaptation a little more iffy.
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macadoo



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
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Location: Washington, NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
macadoo wrote:
john kanca wrote:


6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the oxygen-inhibited layer is the reason dual-cured materials, if allowed to self-cure, don't bond as well with some bonding systems as when light cured. Removing this layer with alcohol gives stronger bonding strengths when allowing these materials to self-cure. Just curious if the same is true with Surpass, for the times when I don't want to cure twice, preferring one bulk-fill increment.


Not sure who told you this. We thought of trying this probably 15 years ago and found that if the resin adhesive won't stick to self-cure removing the 02 layer won't matter.


Gotcha. I think I first heard it in a Swift/Boushell lecture, but I'm not certain. Clinician's Choice has it in the directions for MPa.
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macadoo



Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 36
Location: Washington, NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macadoo wrote:
john kanca wrote:
macadoo wrote:
john kanca wrote:


6) Surpass claims to be compatible with all dual cure materials, but the initial increment must be light-cured. Alternatively, can the cured Surpass be scrubbed with EtOH to allow bulk placement of core material without curing the initial layer?

Why would you do that?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the oxygen-inhibited layer is the reason dual-cured materials, if allowed to self-cure, don't bond as well with some bonding systems as when light cured. Removing this layer with alcohol gives stronger bonding strengths when allowing these materials to self-cure. Just curious if the same is true with Surpass, for the times when I don't want to cure twice, preferring one bulk-fill increment.


Not sure who told you this. We thought of trying this probably 15 years ago and found that if the resin adhesive won't stick to self-cure removing the 02 layer won't matter.


Gotcha. I think I first heard it in a Swift/Boushell lecture, but I'm not certain. Clinician's Choice has it in the directions for MPa.


"With a self-cure composite, One Step
Plus shows bond strength of 21.4 MPa33
in one study and 19 MPa in another.34
In the later study, MPa showed a bond
strength of 18.5 MPa to the self- cure
composite; however, when the oxygen-
inhibited layer was removed with
alcohol, the bond strength more than
doubled to 38.9 MPa to the level obtained
using light-cured composite.34"

Source: 34. Walter R, Swift EJ Jr., Ritter AV, et al.
Dentin bonding of an etch-and-rinse adhesive
using self-and light-cured composites.
Am J Dent. 2009;22(4):215-218.

Since you're the man who invented Surpass, though, I'll be taking your advice on curing my initial layer of dual-cures to be on the safe side.
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


"With a self-cure composite, One Step
Plus shows bond strength of 21.4 MPa33
in one study and 19 MPa in another.34
In the later study, MPa showed a bond
strength of 18.5 MPa to the self- cure
composite; however, when the oxygen-
inhibited layer was removed with
alcohol, the bond strength more than
doubled to 38.9 MPa to the level obtained
using light-cured composite.34"

Source: 34. Walter R, Swift EJ Jr., Ritter AV, et al.
Dentin bonding of an etch-and-rinse adhesive
using self-and light-cured composites.
Am J Dent. 2009;22(4):215-218.

Since you're the man who invented Surpass, though, I'll be taking your advice on curing my initial layer of dual-cures to be on the safe side.


You'll never go wrong with that approach. Remember also that findings like these may not apply to all materials.

This study derives from the work we did long ago with OneStep
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macadoo



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I've heard Dan Fischer say before, "Make it a non-issue."

I gotta say, I'm liking the Surpass so far. You never know if you're making the right choice until you see the results years down the road. There's a lot of faith that goes into dental materials, and the results others have gotten speak volumes.

I just got done with two very difficult wrap-around Class V's on #10 and 11. One of the problems I've had in the past with other self-etch systems (namely Clearfil SE, Optibond XTR) is the tendency of the components to pull blood and other fluids into the prep. The H3PO4 etch/"GLUMA" protocol always seemed to keep those fluids at bay. I've observed the same phenomenon with Surpass so far, and the Clean & Boost has made some nasty preps look pristine.
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macadoo wrote:
Like I've heard Dan Fischer say before, "Make it a non-issue."

I gotta say, I'm liking the Surpass so far. You never know if you're making the right choice until you see the results years down the road. There's a lot of faith that goes into dental materials, and the results others have gotten speak volumes.

I just got done with two very difficult wrap-around Class V's on #10 and 11. One of the problems I've had in the past with other self-etch systems (namely Clearfil SE, Optibond XTR) is the tendency of the components to pull blood and other fluids into the prep. The H3PO4 etch/"GLUMA" protocol always seemed to keep those fluids at bay. I've observed the same phenomenon with Surpass so far, and the Clean & Boost has made some nasty preps look pristine.


Simplicity 1 and Surpass 1 have hemostatic qualities.
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bj



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 320

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
. We always shake Surpass 2 as we would any bottle containing a solvent.[/b]


Don't remember seeing that in the instructions. Quickly inverting the bottle 1 or 2 time should do the trick?
Thanks
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bj wrote:
john kanca wrote:
. We always shake Surpass 2 as we would any bottle containing a solvent.[/b]


Don't remember seeing that in the instructions. Quickly inverting the bottle 1 or 2 time should do the trick?
Thanks


It's something I always do. Might not matter much, but it's habit. Not necessary with Surpass 1.
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