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Etching and sensitivity- quiz time
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6345

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Etching and sensitivity- quiz time Reply with quote

"So I have been told for years. Just not my experience. And it must also not be the experience of many other dentists. Otherwise you wouldn't see the courses, articles and products on the market to reduce sensitivity in post. composites. Is there any reason why only etching the enamel and placing a 6th or 7th generation bonding agent is not acceptable? For deeper preps is there anything wrong with placing glass ionomer before etching? Just wondering. And Howard you are right I started placing composites in the 80's and somewhere along the line learn the total etch technique. Issues of sensitivity never went away for me until I stopped using the technique. I am willing to say it might be me and not the acid that causes the sensitivity."

Why did I highlight those sentences?
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Ekrause



Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. how is your bonding agent going to penetrate into the dentin if you don't remove the smear layer with an acid.

2. Glass Ionomer DOES etch in and of itself. Plus the directions call for removing the smear layer with poly-acrylic (I think) acid anyway. (Conditioner)
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. yes, but not the answer I seek.

2. right.
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Ekrause



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, I missed it!!

6th and 7th generation are self-etching. Exactly how Brush and Bond recommends their product be used.
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right.

We don't want to etch the dentin except that we will etch the dentin.

All bonding systems etch dentin. ALL OF THEM.


Har.
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JKesling



Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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Location: Boise, Idaho

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why go through the extra step if you don't have to? With Simplicity, you eliminate the extra etching step.
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JKesling wrote:
Why go through the extra step if you don't have to? With Simplicity, you eliminate the extra etching step.


Right.

This exposes a few things; first, that people often think that with 6th generation systems they are not etching dentin - but why are they called "self-etch"? (D'oh!)

Second; with some systems enamel definitely needs to be etched to get a decent bond.

Third; glass ionomer most certainly etches and is toxic initially. The last thing you'd want near a pulp is either GI or ZOE.

I have been saying these things for a long time and for the life of me I wonder how some can still not know them.

And finally- these guys don't realize that when they say sensitivity is always an issue with a given system, what they're saying is that THEY are not able to follow directions.

Same for another guy who posted on DT that he was having failures with Simplicity. The same guy posted that he was killing pulps with Absolute Dentin. This is so ignorant. First, blaming the build-up material is inexplicable. He was using Touch N Bond, but he was blaming the core material. The core material could not be the problem.

Yikes!

Here's a guy who had problems with at least two bonding systems and he has the gall to blame the bonding systems. His problem could be seen immediately once he looked into the mirror.

It can be hard pill to swallow but that's the truth.
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Mark J Fleming DDS



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: Sarasota, FL

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
JKesling wrote:
Why go through the extra step if you don't have to? With Simplicity, you eliminate the extra etching step.


Right.

This exposes a few things; first, that people often think that with 6th generation systems they are not etching dentin - but why are they called "self-etch"? (D'oh!)

Second; with some systems enamel definitely needs to be etched to get a decent bond.

Third; glass ionomer most certainly etches and is toxic initially. The last thing you'd want near a pulp is either GI or ZOE.

I have been saying these things for a long time and for the life of me I wonder how some can still not know them.

And finally- these guys don't realize that when they say sensitivity is always an issue with a given system, what they're saying is that THEY are not able to follow directions.

Same for another guy who posted on DT that he was having failures with Simplicity. The same guy posted that he was killing pulps with Absolute Dentin. This is so ignorant. First, blaming the build-up material is inexplicable. He was using Touch N Bond, but he was blaming the core material. The core material could not be the problem.

Yikes!

Here's a guy who had problems with at least two bonding systems and he has the gall to blame the bonding systems. His problem could be seen immediately once he looked into the mirror.

It can be hard pill to swallow but that's the truth.


Gee, Dr All Wise One, how about us who never have the chance to hear you or have the privilege of going to your lectures. I wish to abdicate all my responsibilty and have you spoon feed me!

There, it's off my chest and I said what some of the whiners on DT would say. Carry on!!!!! Wink Cool
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not the responsibilty of each clinician to seek out proper CE?

DT has become a trough for CE pigs- who need (and at times, demand) to be spoonfed information, and for free at that.

And they appreciate nothing.
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jasonl



Joined: 25 Aug 2005
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I appreciate you.

bug hug!!
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brad



Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ditto to everyone on this site-- there's no doubt I'd be lost without apex and its people.
Thanks.
Thanks big-time
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Bradley A Dorsch, DDS
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bj



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 320

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am extremely grateful but do not say so often enough
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's nice to have a really nice bunch of people here!

We appreciate it.

Thanks!
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satchdds



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 210
Location: niagara falls, n.y.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll admit it and thank you for all your dedication JK.
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d2thdr



Joined: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 402
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john kanca wrote:
It's nice to have a really nice bunch of people here!

We appreciate it.

Thanks!


I doubt he's refering to me....LOL Shocked
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