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THE most common mistake
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6342

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: THE most common mistake Reply with quote

The most common mistake made by those who have trouble with Simplicity is the failure to properly dry the Sim 2, after each application of the brushfuls. It is always better to dry more than less, and more aggressively than less so.

The instructions indicate that the air syringe, presumably set at 40 lbs, ought to be held perpendicular to the bonded surface two inches away and the Sim 2 dried for at least 5 seconds after the the 3 brushfuls and the subsequent 2 brushfuls.

Following this protocol will result in great success. Very Happy
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pablo



Joined: 19 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: THE most common mistake Reply with quote

John, I understand the protocol and follow the instructions but we both know that one can't position the a/w syringe 2'' at a perpendicular angle to the bonding surface in a lot of areas of the mouth.

I start out drying the Sim 2 as far away as possible (up to 2'') and then I close in if you will to make sure it is really dry i.e. no fluid flow, but at a lower psi.

Just a thought,

regards

Paul

p.s. Feliz Aniversario! Laughing
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!

I hear you but at least now we have a standard starting point. Cool
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After each application of Sim 2, DRY DRY DRY as indicated. This is SUCH as important item!

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john kanca



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just between us, if the instructions for any primer do not indicate that one really needs to dry THOROUGHLY, then you can expect that the bond strengths of those systems will deteriorate in time.

THIS IS THE BIG KEY TO SUCCESS IN ADHESION
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dsg_c1



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: mill creek, wa

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john,
doesn't clearfil se say not to air dry to aggressively? i'm probably wrong, but isn't their product almost dependant on a thick layer for higher bond strengths?
i love sim since i switched - just trying to figure out why they say thick and your product is so thin and you say that is the trick to quality bonding.

hey, i have another question - this might even sound like it makes sense - instead of the rambling up above. i remember you were discussing a post on DT about sensitivity. the dr. used a bonding agent then resin without curing first. you then stated that most likely this product is going to continue to have problems. here's my question finally - multilink from ivoclar is getting rave reviews from everyone in terms of bonding strengths. from what i understand in the application of the material one is to use their primer A and B. this is their enamel and dentinal bonding. the instructions are not to cure anything with a light. would you expect the same sensitivity issues with this or am i "up in the night"?

take it easy cool kid - i'm waiting to order anchor when i'm out of my current resin cement.

take care,
d
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

john,
doesn't clearfil se say not to air dry to aggressively?

It's not clear at all in their instructions, which are pretty poor in that regard.

i'm probably wrong, but isn't their product almost dependant on a thick layer for higher bond strengths?

Yes it is- but it's the resin layer, not the primer layer.

i love sim since i switched - just trying to figure out why they say thick and your product is so thin and you say that is the trick to quality bonding.

Thin lets you do anything- including add thickness.

hey, i have another question - this might even sound like it makes sense - instead of the rambling up above. i remember you were discussing a post on DT about sensitivity. the dr. used a bonding agent then resin without curing first. you then stated that most likely this product is going to continue to have problems. here's my question finally - multilink from ivoclar is getting rave reviews from everyone in terms of bonding strengths. from what i understand in the application of the material one is to use their primer A and B. this is their enamel and dentinal bonding. the instructions are not to cure anything with a light. would you expect the same sensitivity issues with this or am i "up in the night"?

I don't know for sure, but their A&B could be a self-cure primer. I haven't tested it myself- so who gives the rave reviews? I have not heard anything about it yet. But remember, a cement is different from a restorative in terms of contraction stress.

take it easy cool kid - i'm waiting to order anchor when i'm out of my current resin cement.

take care,
d
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doc4smile



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I ontinue to discover theuse the of Sim.
I just wnat to share w/ the group the mistakes I have made, hoping I'm not the only one...and perhaps, a gaining few tips to correct the problems.

Mistake #1- I learned that you can't place Simplicity before you made your temp. (At least using Bisacrylic material) I just tried one the other day...accidently did it when I was in hurry. I thought I can get away from it once the temp is set then I can clean off the inhab. layers and place temp cement and done deal---wrong, it set and was lack in. Luckly the temp was set @ 1min + and I was able to break the temp easily and re-start the whole thing.

Mistake #2-Simplicity do bond to Temrex-non engenol( or whatever that thing is called-All i know is it is resin temp cement) I will order some Duerlon tomorrow. I put the whole post+core out of the temp. crown.
I have to rebuild the whole thing.

BTW, Can Simplicity be use the bonding agent for cementing post?

Other than the mistakes that I have mention above. I'm very impressed w/ the Sim. Most of the patient response favorablly. The only bad part is the 1st air blow w/ Sim 2...the pat can still feel most of sensitivity ( ie. using it for cement the crown on delivery day). Only the second coat of Sim. 2 will t he sentivity goes down.

Thanks for introd. me to the Sim. dr.Kanca.

Excuse my typo...it is around 3:50am ...jsut coundn't sleep.

cheers,
Gary
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doc4smile



Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 34
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I ontinue to discover theuse the of Sim.
I just wnat to share w/ the group the mistakes I have made, hoping I'm not the only one...and perhaps, a gaining few tips to correct the problems.

Mistake #1- I learned that you can't place Simplicity before you made your temp. (At least using Bisacrylic material) I just tried one the other day...accidently did it when I was in hurry. I thought I can get away from it once the temp is set then I can clean off the inhab. layers and place temp cement and done deal---wrong, it set and was lack in. Luckly the temp was set @ 1min + and I was able to break the temp easily and re-start the whole thing.

Mistake #2-Simplicity do bond to Temrex-non engenol( or whatever that thing is called-All i know is it is resin temp cement) I will order some Duerlon tomorrow. I put the whole post+core out of the temp. crown.
I have to rebuild the whole thing.

BTW, Can Simplicity be use the bonding agent for cementing post?

Other than the mistakes that I have mention above. I'm very impressed w/ the Sim. Most of the patient response favorablly. The only bad part is the 1st air blow w/ Sim 2...the pat can still feel most of sensitivity ( ie. using it for cement the crown on delivery day). Only the second coat of Sim. 2 will t he sentivity goes down.

Thanks for introd. me to the Sim. dr.Kanca.

Excuse my typo...it is around 3:50am ...jsut coundn't sleep.

cheers,
Gary
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Other than the mistakes that I have mention above. I'm very impressed w/ the Sim. Most of the patient response favorablly. The only bad part is the 1st air blow w/ Sim 2...the pat can still feel most of sensitivity ( ie. using it for cement the crown on delivery day). Only the second coat of Sim. 2 will t he sentivity goes down. "

That's why it is recommended that Simplicity be applied on the day of prep. Any system is going to cause some sensitivity when applied if the dentin is not sealed.
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bj



Joined: 15 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"BTW, Can Simplicity be use the bonding agent for cementing post?"

Yes, see the instructions.

And read all the posts here on the Apex forum & you will like these products even more.
As with all dental materials, following the instuctions makes all the difference.
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marshall white



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 18
Location: Granville, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to add that another (maybe the second biggest?) mistake is not maintaining the tooth's wetness with Sim 1 up to the point when Sim 2 is applied.

I have talked to a number of docs, among them some of the folks at DT who initially had pop-offs and other adhesive failures, who upon probing interrogation admit that they were extremely concerned about the teeth being TOO wet with Sim 1. So much so that they did various things to try and prevent an excessive amt of Sim 1 dwelling on the tooth immediately prior to app of the Sim 2. By daubing with a dry sponge or applying a light airstream they inadvertantly dry or over-dry some or all of the prep.

Many new Sim users seem to be switching over from using Clearfil SE. Following application of clearfil's first layer, the primer, it's fully air-dried prior to app of the bonding resin in the 2nd step. This can present a problem when Sim is adopted in place of the Clearfil SE.

Applying their Clearfil primer also meant performing an action that was a well-established habit done with little or no conscious thought much like braking a car, squinting in sunlight, or adding Cascade to the dishwasher. From personal experience: I'd caught myself a few times reaching for the a/w syringe...

During a busy clinical day, it's not too hard to imagine that any dentist could be drying the Sim 1. The doctor may not even realize it and naturally (and honestly) might even deny they'd deviated from Simplicity's DFU.

Just my $0.02 worth,

M.
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dsg_c1



Joined: 11 May 2005
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Location: mill creek, wa

PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marshall,
you just explained my clinical life in a few paragraphs. can i call you "the swami"?
i have also had a few failures (you stated about drying sim 1) out of pure habit with prior bonding agents and my ineptness to follow directions.
take care,
d
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john kanca



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good advice, Marshall, and appreciated.
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bj



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every material we use gets a "chairside" instuction write up in large print. Who can remember every detail of all the products. Granted, after a hundred uses we no longer refer to them but we still have them & refer to the ones every time if it is a rarely used product. I can't imagine winging something from memory w so many steps & so many similar products. It's like not using a calculator, possible but silly.
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