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HPO3 etch before Simplicity??

 
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doctor_goose



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: HPO3 etch before Simplicity?? Reply with quote

John -- what effect does this have on the bond strengths?
I have heard this advocated for the later bonding generation agents?
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Ryan D. Goslin, DDS, FAGD
48 Clarke St
Burlington, VT 05401
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6342

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: HPO3 etch before Simplicity?? Reply with quote

doctor_goose wrote:
John -- what effect does this have on the bond strengths?
I have heard this advocated for the later bonding generation agents?


It won't help with either Simplicity or Surpass. Both Simplicity 1 and Surpass 1 etch cut enamel as well as H3PO4.

Using H3PO4 prior to most 6th and especially 7th generation bonding systems can impair their effectiveness.
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doctor_goose



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: etch and simplicity Reply with quote

John,

what happens to the enamel and dentin layers with etch prior to simplicity and other 6th and 7th generation bonding agents?

Collapses the collagen? over dessicates? removal of smear?
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Ryan D. Goslin, DDS, FAGD
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: etch and simplicity Reply with quote

doctor_goose wrote:
John,

what happens to the enamel and dentin layers with etch prior to simplicity and other 6th and 7th generation bonding agents?

Collapses the collagen? over dessicates? removal of smear?


Geez, Ryan, you've got to get to a lecture.

It depends on how long the etch was left on, and how long the next material is left on the enamel and dentin following the etch. It will have different effects on dentin and enamel.

None of them is really helpful when examined together.
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priior



Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as a general thought,

if simplicity 1 is similar to surpass 1... this would mean Simplicity is not really a 6th generation bonding agent.. but more like a 5th generation with a non-rinse etchant.

(sorry for the random thought)
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Nareg Apelian DMD
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doctor_goose



Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

geez - John,

I have been to your lectures!

I will review my notes. See you at Yankee again ??

I am not sure what you mean by "none of them is really helpful when examined together"

I am trying to understand why the H3PO4 would have an adverse effect if only placed on the cavosurface margin? I follow your thought on overetching. Why would this harm simplicity?

I can't be the only one with these questions - or perhaps you have answered them on other posts. or perhaps I was just hung over at the last lecture.

Thanks for your help - have a great weekend
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Ryan D. Goslin, DDS, FAGD
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john kanca



Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 6342

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

doctor_goose wrote:
geez - John,

I have been to your lectures!

I will review my notes. See you at Yankee again ??

I am not sure what you mean by "none of them is really helpful when examined together"

I am trying to understand why the H3PO4 would have an adverse effect if only placed on the cavosurface margin? I follow your thought on overetching. Why would this harm simplicity?

I can't be the only one with these questions - or perhaps you have answered them on other posts. or perhaps I was just hung over at the last lecture.

Thanks for your help - have a great weekend


The effect of the acid etching on the adhesive depends on how long the adhesive is left on the tooth structure prior to activation.

Prior etching the dentin impairs the bond strength of 6th and 7th generation systems.
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